My adventure in becoming a [Good] Mormon

What would have happened if a)Jesus disobeyed God’s will and never died for our sins(which is complex to imagine, considering God is Jesus…Which still confuses me)? or b)Jesus never came at all? Would there be any possible way to be saved? Would it only be through our behavior alone that we were saved because we couldn’t rely on the Atonement?

If there was no Atonement, would people strive harder to be better? Not just accept some slips and say it would be alright because they’d be forgiven.

Perhaps I’m being controversial. This is why I keep my questions to myself 😛

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Comments on: "Just a thought…." (9)

  1. john doe said:

    biblequery.org/OtherBeliefs/Mormonism/Mormon.htm

    Consume.

  2. Bruce said:

    Cass … good questions all … and some are answered in scripture, the rest are interesting things to consider. Some think that these kinds of questions are a waste of time … i believe they drive us further into relationship with Christ as we begin to understand more fully who God is and what He has done for us.

    The old testement, thought actual history and the development of God’s people, is also an interesting demonstration for us. Israel was given all those things we might want to be aware of God: voices from heaven, prophets, miracles, you name it. Outside of Israel, the pagan nations had none of that … yet could see the effects of God’s working in the lives of Israel.

    At the end of Old Testement period, The Apostle Paul looks back (in the first 3 chapters of Romans) and makes an interesting assessment. There used to be an ad on TV years ago for a detergent called ABC. In those ads, someone would wash one pile of clothes in some leading brand, and another would wash a load in ABC — a discount brand. At the end of the ad they would look at both piles and say “I can’t tell the difference!”. They meant of course that ABC was as good as the more expensive leading brands. Well, Paul gets there too … he looks at Israel, and he looks at the pagans, and he declares “I can’t see the difference!”. In fact, if anything he says that Israel was worse off.

    In that section he expresses how much we are all lost were it not for the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ … so in a sense he deals with the ‘atonement’ question. Had Jesus (and you are quite correct, God manifests Himself to us in three forms: thought:God, word:Jesus and deed:Spirit) not followed through .. there would be no atonement, and no prospect of atonement. The Old Testement shows clearly that we are unable to meet God’s standard at any level regardless of our knowledge of Him.

    Would people still strive to be better without an atonement? I think the answer is yes .. because we were created to be better than we are … we lost our spiritual awareness and connection with God in the fall … but it has left a crater within us … and we ‘know’ we need to fill that crater back in. So yes, people will strive to fill it in, but unforttunately, nothing will satisfy … because the crater is a mirror image of a relationship … not of things, not of religion, not of love, wealth or power. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the creator and not the created, can fill that void.

    Continue on your journey … never tire of the questions or let people tell you they are a waste of time … for all such questioning makes you ‘more perfect in the faith’ as Pual would put it.

    • Wow…Thank you Bruce, you just finally helped me make sense of the whole Trinity deal!:D

      I always like your comments, you’re super informative!

  3. john doe said:

    Has nothing to do with logic.

    • I’m sorry? Any argument made, by laws of philosophy, the universe, whatever you desire to call it, has to be based on logic, otherwise it becomes null and void because it fails to back itself up in a manner that would be able to 1)convince the reader it is the most logical and 2)Out-do other arguments made. Your link does neither. It states theories and ideas with little, if any, backing. It is argued based upon the writer’s beliefs, which are never convincing in any argument of theology. The rule of any argument even attempting to be factual is that beliefs are never to enter into it because, while you may know it to be true, there is no backing that is convincing enough to make it better than any other arguments posed.

      I have no issue with your beliefs, friend. But I do take issue with the idea of you posting links on my blog to sites that fail to make any arguments that are backed solidly.

  4. john doe said:

    You just like completely contradicted everything your own beliefs and everything you posted.

    • How so? If I wished to argue my religion with you, then I would have. I am arguing that your logic entailing arguments doesn’t make sense. I have not at any point brought up my own beliefs in this argument, therefore, I cannot have contradicted myself in any way over my beliefs. In all my arguing, I have not once stated my beliefs on any matter, because, this is an argument, a place where personal beliefs don’t belong. You bring those in, we’re just gonna end up with a repeat of the Crusades. My most recent comment has been straightforward and, it appears at least to me, not very confusing. Shall I simplify it for you? Or are you sure you understand exactly what a contradiction entails?

      This is about the point one would surrender before further embarrassment occurs if they are unable to make a convincing case for themselves. ‘John Doe’, I am only getting started. I can pretty much guarantee you that I have been dealing with people like you (the ones who try to make an argument over religion with little to no support and then try to tell me I’m a)over-reacting b)blinded by faith to my ‘heresy’ or c) ‘dumb’ or some variation on that, or something quite similar) much longer than you yourself have been dealing with any sort of ‘Religious Apologetic’, and nearly every time, people like yourself fail with a comeback that is sensible, worth anyone’s time or factual.

      Just a little advice: Before you post something that is bound to spark any type of discussion 1)Check your facts, 2)Be prepared for the unexpected questions/comebacks and 3)Don’t start something you aren’t confident in your knowledge about. I was hoping by posting a comment to you that an intriguing and mind-working debate would be started. I can see I was horribly mistaken. I find it sad that you try to bring someone down by posting a relatively crappy link then fail to back it up when confronted. Thinking before you act is something you should learn to live by.

      I have re-read this three times and I am certain I have, in no way, contradicted myself. If you feel the need to point out any contradictions, please provide quotes of the exact contradiction, why it is contradictory to anything found here and please, for the love of all that is good, 1)Make a good argument and 2)Use punctuation. Nothing proves you to be an internet troll more than a lack of a sense of grammar. If you’ve ever taken high school social studies, these are the main ideas of the subject. You would be wise to, perhaps, retake it. If you haven’t already.

      If you really feel the need to reply, I am expecting something of a much higher caliber than you have shown. Otherwise I will continue as I have up till now. You are not making any headway here in convincing me Mormonism is wrong and I have read your postings with an open mind. I am one who is continually searching and you have given me nothing worthwhile in pursuing beyond the expanse of the internet.

  5. Rahun Balmensavocavish said:

    “Any argument made, by laws of philosophy, the universe, whatever you desire to call it, has to be based on logic,”
    contradicting -> Religion defies all logic.
    Side note: It’s cool that you list out things a) b) c)…x) y) z)
    This makes thing so much easier for us “internet trollers” to understand what you’re talking about.

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